0:00:03 Amanda Stassen: Welcome to Purpose Power Brand, a podcast for leaders and brands transforming business into a force for good. I’m Amanda Stassen, business and brand strategist, entrepreneur and founder of BIZU Innovation Group. I’m speaking with leaders who are proving that not only does purpose drive profit, but the future of our world depends on it. If you’re looking to outperform your market, grow your customers, build your employee culture, or attract investors, you’re in the right place.

0:00:27 Amanda Stassen: Hey, everyone. Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Mark Wandler and Clinton Bishop, co-founders of Susgrainable Health Food, an upcycling company that rescues spent grains from breweries to create nutritious baking mixes and barley flour filled with protein, fiber and minerals. Welcome, Mark and Clinton to the Purpose Power brand podcast. Super excited to have you with us today.

0:00:50 Marc Wandler: Thank you for having us.

0:00:51 Clinton Bishop: So great to be here.

0:00:52 Amanda Stassen: Awesome. So we talk a lot about harnessing the power of business to have positive impact on our world in this podcast, and especially that intersection between purpose and profit and how that inspires us to do the work that we do. When you guys think about the business that you’ve built over the last six years, what word, or maybe even phrase comes to mind that describes your personal purpose and why you’re doing what you’re doing? Clinton, why don’t we start with you first?

0:01:24 Clinton Bishop: Yeah So I differ a little bit from Mark and my personal reason for heading out on this venture, and I call it honoring the farmer. And that’s because I grew up on a farm in rural Alberta. And being able to work with Barley, which is something that throughout the year, we spend a lot of time, energy and care and growing and being able to keep that in our food system for that extra step after the brewing process means a lot to me. Having been there from the day that it sprouted out of the ground all the way to the day that it’s been turned into that cold beer on a summer day, to that warm banana bread on a Sunday evening at home. It’s very rewarding to see that.

0:02:06 Amanda Stassen: Wow. I love that. So it’s about honor. Mark, how about you?

0:02:10 Marc Wandler: Yeah. So most people think I started this because of the sustainability aspect of it, which is true and core to my purpose, and that’s evolved over time. But the funny thing is, I actually worked primarily with diabetics for about five years with Alberta Health Services. And so when I first met somebody from the beer industry who mentioned that the grains that were basically being disposed of from breweries were a waste management program, and I learned that they were high protein, high fiber.

0:02:40 Marc Wandler: I was like, this is actually a health product. And so the initial purpose for me was how much we could transform our health system, because right now, if you kind of ask anybody, like, the hot topic is sugar, but nobody talks about fiber, which actually, in the last two to three years has changed dramatically. So I’ve been increasingly loving that. And then I think the one big thing I also like to talk about when growing a business is you also need to keep finding, like, renewed purpose and more reasons for doing it. And so lately, and I think Clinton, this would resonate with him, too, is that our team that is joining us is, like, so passionate about the mission that we’re on, that even when we’re having, like, a down day, like, straight up, my dog passed away yesterday, and the team has been picking me up and doing that.

0:03:37 Marc Wandler: The renewed passion is the team. Like, I started this business out saying I, like, lived my life accidentally on purpose.

0:03:45 Amanda Stassen: Yeah.

0:03:45 Marc Wandler: And now I’ve just transformed that slightly, saying, now I live accidentally with purpose.

0:03:51 Amanda Stassen: So good.

0:03:52 Marc Wandler: That’s truly where we’re at with Susgrainable. And I’m just so excited for everything that’s coming for us, too.

0:03:58 Amanda Stassen: I love that. I love that. When you’re living a missional, purposeful life and you’re building based on that, people can’t help but get excited. They can’t help but catch the vision. And that’s when you know you’re onto something. When, when you talk about it to somebody else, they can get excited. They can imagine themselves being a part of that, that fight that you’re fighting or that challenge that you’re taking on, and it becomes part of their purpose as well. So I love that. I love the evolving purpose and how it continues to fire you guys up.

0:04:33 Amanda Stassen: So thank you for sharing that. Mark, you tweaked me on the genesis, and I want to ask about that. How did Susgrainable come into being? Maybe walk us through the genesis of the idea to where you guys are today just to set some context for people who don’t know what the business is all about. Tell us how it came into being

0:04:55 Marc Wandler: So Susgrainable literally happened accidentally. I was I chose personally. I was working in healthcare as well as with Westjet. WestJet was kind of my fun job for travel. In the latter years, I became a flight attendant and just really started traveling the world, meeting different cultures and learning what was kind of coming next. Business was always, even when I worked in government, when I worked in private, I always gravitated toward the business side, and I was almost like the intrapreneur and creating change and positive change wherever I worked.

0:05:28 Marc Wandler: So I went and took a few business classes at U of C, and they’re just like, you need to do an MBA. What are you doing doing an undergrad? And so I looked into their MBA program, and it was so focused on oil and gas, and I was like, cool. MBA seems like the right thing for me right now, but I need to find a program that really resonated with my values. UBC’s main value proposition was sustainability and innovation. And when I visited the campus, you could see it, like, coming out and then living it out.

0:06:00 Marc Wandler: So I came out here, and one of the colleagues worked in the beer industry. He brought forward the problem for a class project. And after four months, I was like, this is actually a business, because we did business cases on what you could use with the byproduct. And we looked at it as, like, an energy source. We looked at it for, like, taking mycelium and creating coasters and added value products for the beer industry.

0:06:25 Marc Wandler: But for me and one of our food scientists, who was part of the student group, it was all about keeping this to its highest value in the food system. And that really supercharged my sustainability journey and to the knowledge I have now. And Clinton’s involvement basically got. He got involved accidentally by asking too many questions. So I will pass it over to him to tell him how he got involved.

0:06:51 Amanda Stassen: I love it.

0:06:52 Clinton Bishop: Yeah. So Mark had been prototyping flour from spent grain and had been using a vitamix to actually create it. And it created this horrifically coarse first product. And they quickly identified that this was an issue. And, you know, people said it tasted good, but their facial expressions were saying otherwise, kind of like swallowing glass. And so he’s like, if only we had something else that would get this finer.

0:07:21 Clinton Bishop: And he was telling me about this problem and then asking him about what they’re trying to achieve and the product they’re working with. I’m like, well, you just need a mill. And having grown up in the country, my grandparents had a mill that they used to use when they would make bread at home on their own from the wheat that they were growing. So I’m like, wow, I’m just going to dust it off out of storage. And I shipped it over to Vancouver, and then I shortly followed after to help them work with it. And it sort of intrigued me on the whole business idea.

0:07:52 Clinton Bishop: And I ended up taking a sabbatical from my government job for a year. And then didn’t look back. I just fully committed to Susgrainable after that.

0:08:02 Amanda Stassen: Oh, so good. So I’m getting the picture of the upfront kind of research and, you know, understanding the problem came out of that UBC experience. How did you guys, how did you guys, you know, test the idea? How did you determine the market opportunity? Like, you, you saw that there could be money in them hills kind of deal. Clinton, maybe you could take this one on.

0:08:28 Clinton Bishop: Yeah, for sure. So it was very much an iterative approach and keeping, keeping very lean and being able to pivot as we were getting that customer feedback. And that truly became the key as we developed our products, is customer discovery and really gathering all that data as we went. So what do people prefer to eat on a day to day? What textures do they like? What textures can we work with with this product?

0:08:53 Clinton Bishop: And how do we pull all this together and distill it into products that consumers were wanting on a regular basis and then constantly doing that iteration? It was not a one time thing. Like, oh, we developed a product, product, great, put it into market and we’ll just keep going. No, I can’t tell you how many recipe revisions we’ve gone through over the years, but it’s always that listening to your customer and then adapting to what the market is telling you that they want.

0:09:19 Amanda Stassen: Yeah. Mark, would you add anything to that?

0:09:22 Marc Wandler: Oh, 100%. He just, this is the difference between me and Clinton. He gives you the blueprint, and I’ll give you the actual story of what how it went down.

0:09:29 Amanda Stassen: How I love it.

0:09:31 Marc Wandler: Basically, the very first step was 50k in friends and family money. The goal of we’re doing 100 farmers markets, getting it into people’s mouths, and finding out what happens. And by week four, we were like, we need to hire a baker because this is becoming too much. And we’re getting, like, we were selling out by week four of what we could produce ourselves at a farmer’s market. And so we hired a baker, and by week, I think, six or seven, the local food space was like, you need to join this food accelerator. You need to do this.

0:10:01 Marc Wandler: We’ll make it, like, as cheap as possible for you. We want to work with you. By week, like, nine, we were starting to get media feature UBC Sauder reached out and said, hey, we want to do a piece on you because you’re everything that we want the program to stand out for. So we got a piece put out in the Globe and Mail. And then what was the other one? Oh, yeah, the other one was like, there was one midweek farmers market that we’re just like, this one’s slow, so we’re going to use it for, like, different pieces.

0:10:32 Marc Wandler: And of course, it’s a downtown farmers market. So the weather network for global news came out one day and we were in the back corner because we’re a new vendor in market. And so you start and you work your way up to better positioning in the markets. But I could see there’s like, some underground gossip. Everyone’s like, there’s all this whispering happening. I was like, what’s going on? Insatiably curious I am. So I walk over, find out, oh, there’s global news. Nobody’s going up to them. So I’m like, Clinton, hand me a few samples.

0:11:03 Marc Wandler: And I literally walk up and I was like, hey, thanks so much for featuring the market. I want to just give you guys some product to show you what we’re up to. And told the story in my three second pitch is that we turned beer waste into sustainable, delicious baked goods. They took a bite and they’re like, we need to have you on the afternoon show. So we got in the media like, it earned media, I think, nine times. Weather network, every single kind of channel locally in BC covered us.

0:11:32 Marc Wandler: And so we took that 50k, had 60k in revenue by that nine month period, and all this extra attention. And so me and Clinton were like, we’re definitely onto something. And that just kind of created the, we were literally off to the races. And then Covid took our feet out from under us.

0:11:51 Amanda Stassen: Yes, I get it. But one thing that I really love about what you’re describing is this idea of momentum. And in order to get momentum as an entrepreneur, you need to put yourself out there, go into the farmers, go into the places where people are and just ask them and test out your idea. I love the, the courage that you guys just said, we’re doing it. We’re going out. We’re going to use the farmers markets in different ways and just get feedback on this product. And by being out there, it opened up other opportunities. You got to talk with other people and one thing connected to another, and here you are today.

0:12:29 Amanda Stassen: It’s fabulous. I love that encouragement. So I’m curious about the mechanics of Susgrainable’s business model. Which one of you wants to take us through the process from how you get the spent grains to the finished baking mixes and flour.

0:12:47 Clinton Bishop: Clinton here, I can definitely tackle that one to start. And Mark can fill in some gaps that might come along the way. What we do is we pride ourselves in creating partnerships with craft breweries who are sort of values aligned in what we’re trying to achieve. And they understand that this is an issue of food waste. And so first, it’s about identifying those partners. From there, we are taking that barley, and it’s being upcycled into that high fiber, high protein flour, which becomes our core ingredient and the core part of our story.

0:13:18 Clinton Bishop: That ingredient is a foundation for everything else that we make. So our three CPG baking mixes, the pancake and waffle, the banana bread and the chocolate chip cookie, are our main items in market today. But those are just where we’re starting from. And so we sell through traditional retail, we sell online, and then we sell through our fundraising model, where we work with community groups as well.

0:13:43 Clinton Bishop: But that’s just sort of where we’re starting with today. And, of course, spent grain is just our first byproduct that we want to work with. But that’s sort of the very simple process and how we go from brewery partner all the way to a CPG product that you can have in hand in your kitchen, making fresh cookies, you know, for everyone at home.

0:14:02 Amanda Stassen: Yeah, and, you know, I’d love to, and maybe, Mark, you could speak to this. It’s not like I’m curious about that first conversation with the local breweries. Was it like you just picked up the phone and said, hey, we have this idea, and how can, can you give us your, your spent grains? Like, did they, how quickly did they buy into the idea of upcycling the spent grains into a consumable product?

0:14:27 Marc Wandler: Yeah, so super fun one. This takes me back to, like, this is the fun thing about when we were initially doing it, we were students, so it was a student project, and they were like, super okay with it when we said that. The interesting thing in business, and this is where you kind of find your alignment on a values base, is, why are you doing it? What’s in it for them? Because they still want to know something’s in it for them, which is kind of why we’re focused on the craft brewery sector.

0:14:57 Marc Wandler: One, their values in line, in sourcing kind of the higher end barley grains. So they go directly to malthouses usually. They’re concerned about quality, and our customers in the natural health sector are also concerned about quality. So we can’t actually go to the big players quite yet. The big players all know about us and have reached out, which is fun. But for us, the initial underground story of it, how it builds from the ground up, it starts with the craft breweries, a couple of the breweries like telling the stories, but going back to those very first conversations, we went to six breweries.

0:15:36 Marc Wandler: Three of them were super keen right off the start. Two were really worried about their liability because they know that spent grain on the wet end spoils super fast. So they wanted to make sure that they weren’t going to be liable for anything. And then one was like, we can’t do this because of the process. We needed it directly from the mash tonight. And they were like, this is too onerous on us. But funny story is once you gain that momentum, then you have all the breweries, and just about everybody who comes to the table and wants to invest in us literally shares that they know two or three brewery owners and we’re like, that is the least hardest aspect of this at this point in time. Like, breweries are pretty quick to get on board when they find out what we’re doing, and especially when we tell them what’s coming next.

0:16:27 Amanda Stassen: Mm hmm, mm hmm. It’s interesting, the, just the leeway, I love that you started with this idea that it was a student project. I don’t think we should underestimate, or we really shouldn’t underestimate that, the power of being able to go, look, we’re exploring this idea. It’s part of a project interested to get your input, because everybody has this opportunity to share their expertise. But then from there, building the relationships with those brewers who have similar shared values as you, and then going in deeper, because once you get one, the other ones will come on. It’s the, it’s the whole idea of constructing a minimal viable product.

0:17:05 Amanda Stassen: It goes the same way for minimal viable process. Right? Like it’s this idea of, are you sure it can work? Is it going to be okay? Or is there the liability that you’ve explored? Once you’ve done it with one, then it’s so much easier for others to come on board. And that’s exactly the, what you guys are saying, which is really great. That’s fabulous. The last time we chatted, we, we talked a little bit about the importance of finding the right co- founder partner and setting up the right investment equity structure.

0:17:34 Amanda Stassen: I want to dive into that a little bit more. And I want to start with why you recommend finding a co-founder. Mark, why don’t you kick this one off?

0:17:43 Marc Wandler: Sure. My recommendation is always that because it’s a grind. And I literally say I could probably do a just about any type of business in any type of industry with the right co founder. It doesn’t take me much to get engaged and excited about something if there’s an impact to it that I care about. And so I guess when it comes to investment thesis, and this is a good time to bring this up, is one of the things that I struggle with, with investors in meeting number one. I know it’s coming, but it’s like they’re always like, know your numbers.

0:18:16 Marc Wandler: They always just mean financial numbers. So what I’ve started doing is being like, I want to know your numbers. I want to know how much you know about impact and do you know anything? Because they dropped the term ESG and so few people know anything about it and how it’s like, it really relates to impact. So this is almost my litmus test at this point. But, yeah, no, I would literally, I think I’m probably the type of personality that by the time my time comes, I’ll have started and worked on 15 to 20 businesses. I don’t think I’m going to start them all from scratch. I may join on, but it really came down to having that right business structure. And I think one of the earliest conversations around making sure we had a reverse vesting agreement so that if anybody does leave early, because it’s probably going to happen, the right people still have enough in the business to keep taking it forward, and it doesn’t kill future investment rounds that may be needed.

0:19:19 Marc Wandler: So my co founder is a lot more independent than I am. So I’m very curious to hear his answer to this question.

0:19:28 Clinton Bishop: Well, this independent co founder actually does not recommend being a solopreneur.

0:19:33 Amanda Stassen: Okay.

0:19:34 Clinton Bishop: I think that having those complementary skill sets on the team is incredibly valuable. The other thing that I think is often forgotten is going down the entrepreneurial journey. It’s quite the roller coaster. And to be riding that alone can be so difficult because there’s days where operationally, I’m having a heck of a time because it happens to be one of those lows in the roller coaster. But then you have that co founder or other business partners who are there to keep you going, and then the reverse is going to be true at some point. You know, maybe, you know, a marketing event didn’t go the way it’s planned. Well, you know, Mark might be in a down mood, but here I am able to, you know, still hold him up.

0:20:19 Clinton Bishop: And I think that that’s often not thought about until you’re in those low moments. Just how valuable it is to have that, that team around you all the time.

0:20:28 Amanda Stassen: Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. And finding the right balance, like looking finding accidentally, you know, that, that fortuitous accident where you meet somebody or you’re working with somebody who’s like minded, and then knowing that there’s, there’s a good harmony between the two of you, where one is strong in one area, one strong in another area is so important. You guys mentioned the idea of reverse investing.

0:20:53 Amanda Stassen: Um, I want to understand that. Why don’t, why don’t, Clinton, why don’t you explain what that is, and then I tell us why that’s important as a structural setup.

0:21:02 Clinton Bishop: Yeah. And I’ll kind of expand a little bit on that. So when we looked at forming the company, one of the big priorities for us was that the company had to be our number one priority at any given moment. And so all of the founders were below that in the hierarchy. So when we did the governance structure, we ensured all IP was owned by the company. We ensured all of our terms were flexible to the company’s needs. So even our employment agreements were very one sided in favor of the company.

0:21:33 Clinton Bishop: And it was all done intentionally because that was the priority. And we were all on that same page, that the Susgrainable is paramount and our individual needs are subservient to that. As part of that, we instituted reverse vesting agreements. And so it was a four year period where, yes, you have all of your equity upfront, but should you decide to leave the company, then you need to sell that back to the company at its nominal value.

0:22:00 Clinton Bishop: And then the company has those retained shares that it can use for bringing in other members of the executive team or rewarding investors. Anything we might need to do with those shares. But it encourages you to stick it out during that initial period of the company.

0:22:16 Amanda Stassen: And just a little bit more on the co founder harmony and that balance. Mark, what would you say is the, like, if you were to recommend to starting entrepreneurs, starting out, what to look for in a co founder? What would you say are your top things? Not to out your partner here in any way, but like, just maybe lean into it a little bit.

0:22:39 Marc Wandler: Oh, my God. I would out my partner all the time, and I do, I do 100%. I out. That’s not my problem. It’s just a really big question because this is where you really need to know yourself.

0:22:50 Amanda Stassen: Yeah.

0:22:50 Marc Wandler: So this is where, as a first time founder, most people, and I’ll even include myself back at that point, is I didn’t fully know the gamut of skill sets it takes to run a company. So we actually started with four co founders.

0:23:05 Amanda Stassen: Okay.

0:23:05 Marc Wandler: I would recommend people start with as many co founders as they feel is necessary. But having that proper governance structure that Clinton talked about. The only thing I would recommend to make sure is done is making sure who is the person that’s actually leading the company. So you really do need to have that CEO. And I don’t know if Clinton would disagree, but I don’t think I’ve ever been challenged by any of the founders, other founders, that that wasn’t going to be me. Because even as we were doing the student project, when anything was kind of hitting a lull, and even when I have a down moment, Clinton will be like, I need to step up. And he’s like, but he’ll literally be like, how many days? Like, you probably only need one or two days.

0:23:52 Marc Wandler: And that’s how long it takes me to process. I can really get through anything, but I’ll tell him, like, I’ll get a piece of bad news and be like, I’m done for the day. And he’ll be like, we need to do these critical things. And I’m like, I’m putting it on a notepad. I can triage. This was the thing I did at WestJet for three years was like customer recovery. So I’m never worried about losing or the fear of losing somebody. I’m very confident in my ability to get them back.

0:24:20 Marc Wandler: But when you’re looking for that skill set is, you should be evaluating it constantly. Is, are they bringing the value that they said they would bring to the company when you originally kind of started everything? And the one joke I have about why me and Clinton are the perfect co founders is because the one thing we have in common is our work ethic. Like, we never question each other’s work ethic when we might not be able to talk to each other.

0:24:48 Marc Wandler: We know the other one’s kind of keeping on their tasks. But everything else, we literally could argue. And honestly, we could probably charge people to watch our arguments because when it gets heated, nobody else from the team will get involved. But they’re just like it was actually, we learned so much watching the two of you. You bring forward valid arguments. It’s actually crazy to watch.

0:25:14 Amanda Stassen: That’s great. Clinton, what would you add? What’s your, do you have a differing point of view or?

0:25:19 Clinton Bishop: I mean, not that I like to say I agree with Mark because that makes for a less interesting founders group, just to say that, but I mean, he’s very right in his thoughts on this. And, yeah, I mean, I can’t really add more to that. I think it was very, it was very good.

0:25:37 Amanda Stassen: Yeah. Now listen, I, you know, in, in starting your brand, here’s a, you know, another area that, that’s always tricky for entrepreneurs at whatever stage they are in their, in their business building. What would you guys say were, and maybe Mark, this is, this is more in your expertise area, but what would you say were the, maybe the two most important awareness building tools? Awareness and getting the word out about who you are, what you do, what you stand for.

0:26:07 Amanda Stassen: Were there any, what success strategies could you share that actually really worked for building awareness?

0:26:14 Marc Wandler: That’s a great question. It’s a lead funnel thing. So I’ll answer this, but then I’m curious to hear Clinton’s thoughts on the evaluation side of things. And so this is where I’ll really talk about how one of my personal kind of pet peeves in business right now, and I’m bringing this from my healthcare days, is that self feedback or self evaluation is terribly inaccurate. We are our worst evaluators of our own work.

0:26:47 Marc Wandler: So you almost need to, and I kind of like I’m trying to work with government on this because they keep being like, we want your KPI’s. And I’m like, well they feed into your KPI’s. So can you give me transparency into what KPI’s you’re measuring so that then we can make ours fit into that and we get not so much clarity on that. So that’s a work in progress, but honestly, it’s whatever resonates with you. The one thing I’ll say is don’t just focus on one channel.

0:27:14 Marc Wandler: So we did farmers markets, but at the exact same time as the team was doing farmers market, I was like, cool farmers market season is a four month season and we have a business that needs to sell product twelve months of the year. So what are the additional channels? And I’m a big fan of always a-b testing everything. And you need to constantly be aware of this channel might help us grow, but we’re only going to be able to grow to this level and knowing the rules of the game are important. So for farmers market, for example, we needed to be very critical of what we were doing because the minute we had to go bring on a co-packer, which we were going to need to get into the bigger grocery chains, we are going to lose our ability to sell into farmers markets.

0:28:06 Marc Wandler: So for us it was pretty clear on where those steps are. The tangential channels are always available. I say that was probably one of the hardest things of navigating Covid is that buying patterns were changing every three months. And so me and Clinton made a very strategic decision to be very different than most folks. And we tested sales channels as opposed to, like, really diving deep into them. We learned all the data and information we needed. Should we have chosen to go after that channel coming out of COVID but we were very much of the mindset that we should chase data and understand all the channels that would be available to us throughout the pandemic to then see coming out of the pandemic where the real channel was going to be that would support us. And so we have a lot of clarity on that right now where a lot of businesses don’t. We know our go to market now because we’ve tested everything, and we now know where to go coming out of this, and now we just need to raise the money, get the facility off the ground and hit go.

0:29:14 Marc Wandler: But, yeah, let’s hear Clinton’s thoughts if he wants to share.

0:29:18 Clinton Bishop: Yeah, I think I’ll expand a little bit on what Mark has said, and I think that as we’ve looked at our sales channels, there’s a lot of factors that you think about when you have a product that’s consumer ready and convenience is one because we’re solving a problem. That’s what all businesses do is they solve a problem. And so for our customers, what problem are we solving for them? What’s the most convenient way for us to get that to them, and what’s the most cost effective way for us to get that to them? And those types of considerations end up informing a lot of our actions. And like Mark said, a lot of data gathering has happened over the pandemic, which has sort of resulted in the sales channels that we’ve chosen today.

0:29:59 Amanda Stassen: And what would you say, like, in terms of your sales channels, we’re talking traditional ones, or are there, you know, like, we’ve got the e commerce, you’ve got your farmers markets, you’ve got retail. Are there any ones that, like, give me an example of one that you tested, and the numbers just didn’t work, like, they just didn’t come back as well as you would have wanted, and maybe the impact wasn’t as strong. Give me an example of that, Clinton, what would be one of the ones that you guys walked away from?

0:30:25 Clinton Bishop: Yeah, I mean, there’s probably been a couple, and it’s actually not, they’re not ones that we’ve pursued because we didn’t think that they made sense, but they’re ones that the channel itself pursued because they wanted to try it. And I it was a retail setting. It was sort of a health supplement. It was a health supplement chain. And they’re like, we want to carry you. And, you know, the whole time, Mark and I sitting there going, we really don’t think the customers who go into that store are looking for this type of product.

0:30:53 Clinton Bishop: We also don’t think that our target consumer is going into these stores and buying these types of things. And we entertained it because all learning is good learning. Whether it’s good or bad, it’s still learning. So we did it. We launched in the chain. It went about as we expected, which wasn’t great. But, you know, it’s those important learnings and what you do with them.

0:31:15 Amanda Stassen: Right.

0:31:15 Clinton Bishop: That creates a lot of value for you.

0:31:18 Amanda Stassen: And, Mark, maybe you can speak to this next question. You’re just tweaking me on this notion of, at what point did you guys make a decision, or have you? Because it sounds like you’ve got two different parts of the business. You’ve got the CPG or the finished product, so the actual baking mixes, and then you’ve got the ingredient of this barley flour. Where do you like, what would you say the split of the business is? Is it mostly the CPG or is it mostly the flour?

0:31:48 Amanda Stassen: And is one leading versus the other? What’s been the thought process for that decision?

0:31:53 Marc Wandler: Yeah. So I’m going to go back just a little bit, because I want to also add to Clinton’s answer and the fact that, so one sales channel that you brought up, we’re always about also evaluating not only that, no, this isn’t the right channel, but maybe this is actually just not the right timing. So e-commerce is the perfect example. And the best example I have is on Dragon’s Den, when we aired, we got a ton of awareness. It actually leapfrogged our growth into retail. Retailers are saying yes. And now coming to the table to us, we don’t have to go to them. The right person in some of these big organizations, like the big five grocery chains, we’re now chatting to the right person in these organizations.

0:32:35 Marc Wandler: However, the flip side of that is delivery costs. The last mile delivery has gone up tremendously. And so for us to make e-commerce work, it needs to be for free shipping. It needs to be $100 order. Now, most people don’t want to order $100 across three baking mixes, so we got hammered with people being like, this is outrageous. How dare you charge this much delivery in this? So e-comm for us is actually not our core strategy right now.

0:33:04 Marc Wandler: However, when we get the facility off the ground when we’re able to come up with a bunch of different products. And when people are like, I will happily spend $100 on all these products, or potentially we have a couple other businesses that we team up for ecomm because our products align and are complimentary, then we tackle e-commerce. But this takes me to your next question of CPG versus ingredient company.

0:33:30 Marc Wandler: For me and Clinton, the value proposition has always been the flour. However, scaling out the flour is a long process, and awareness is the hardest thing to get. So we’ve really focused on building the brand, building this, to keep allowing people to tell our story through the mixes, through this. And it’s even to the point where on Dragon’s Den, the, like, the conversation started around the mixes because that’s what they wanted. And that’s what the producers, when we chatted, it’s like, well, what’s in market? How is the mixes? So let’s make the pitch all about the mixes.

0:34:03 Marc Wandler: But even the dragons themselves, halfway through the segment, they’re like, this is, you guys are doing this all wrong. It’s all about the flour. And we’re like, we know it’s all about the flour, but we actually don’t have the resources ourselves. We’re also not going to take a terrible deal to get there. So we know our value. We know we can keep bootstrapping along until we hit this critical point.

0:34:27 Marc Wandler: And we’re getting, oh, so close to being like, okay, when we get the facility off the ground, our goal is for 80% to 90% of that flour to go to the B2B market and actually see what the rest of the industry can produce with the flour. There’s so much that can be done with it. We have, like this, what I call the cookie jar, which is our data room full of stuff that can be created. And we already have people playing on that.

0:34:53 Marc Wandler: And then the rest, the other ten to 20%, is to run the brand and keep doing our marketing and honestly keep the business fun for us. And this the new generation who’s really trying to get excited about impact, and we’re really trying to train the industry with our brand of how to actually focus on a circular economy business.

0:35:19 Amanda Stassen: I love it. It transforms the business into such a wonderful research and development, like making bread with it and all these different ways that you can bring it into existence as an ingredient. I love that you guys have taken that approach. And the finished package, the cookie mixes, the baking mixes, I love that you guys are putting it out there in a finished product so that consumers can actually become your biggest ambassadors and they can be the channel through which they can go to the flour manufacturer or whatever, the Robin hoods of the world and say, hey, what about this idea? Because consumers more and more are wanting to be involved in what they eat, what they consume, and how they engage with brands.

0:36:10 Amanda Stassen: It’s, it’s actually a great way that you guys are doing it. That heavy lifting of building the awareness, because that’s where a lot of money can be drained from a startup brand. It’s if, especially if you’re trying to change the way people think about something. So it’s really good the way that you guys are doing that. So six years in operation, really great job. You’ve been on Dragon’s Den. You’ve had some great successes.

0:36:33 Amanda Stassen: Entrepreneurship is not easy. So congrats on keeping the faith and moving forward with all the grit and the resilience that an entrepreneur needs. You’re in over 70 stores. You’ve got a mighty team of eight people. You’ve teased it a little bit, this idea of the facility. So, Mark, maybe you can tell us what the future is for Susgrainable.

0:36:58 Clinton Bishop: Yeah.

0:36:58 Marc Wandler: So the near term future is 70 stores is only because we’ve had to say no to a lot of stores because we don’t have the flour capacity, which has made interesting conversations from the back end. Because when you say no to some of these bigger players and it’s more of a not now, not no, they’re like, well, what do you need? Like they start asking the questions of what do you need to get there? And so we’re getting closer and closer to hitting go on the facility, which kudos to Clinton for sticking around this long because that’s his true passion, is getting this facility off the ground.

0:37:31 Marc Wandler: And that’s been super exciting. So teasing out what we can, I would forecast that we’ll share out about a facility or have a facility up and operational by at the latest Q2 2025. Clinton, what do you think? Is that accurate?

0:37:52 Clinton Bishop: Yeah. I mean, you have a million dollars you haven’t told me about, but, yeah.

0:37:59 Amanda Stassen: I love it.

0:37:59 Clinton Bishop: Yeah.

0:38:00 Amanda Stassen: So that is the future vision to have your own manufacturing or processing facility, is that right, Clinton?

0:38:06 Clinton Bishop: Yeah. The goal is for us to bring the flour entirely in house, and that’s our biggest cost in our product. So the sooner we can drive that cost down and increase our volumes. Of course, the more retailers we can get into, the more products we can start creating and then more price adjustments we can make to our product because we have visions where most people are raising the prices on their products.

0:38:30 Clinton Bishop: We would like to actually bring ours down to make it more accessible to a broader segment of the population.

0:38:37 Marc Wandler: Yeah, and I’ll share this, Amanda. And this is where kind of when Clinton said that, it made me his kind of secret power. And really, the thing that he brings most that nobody knows about is the food safety aspect. Like, we are talking about dealing with a product that spoils really fast. And he is so passionate about food safety. He’s gone into conversations where we have, like, we’ve gotten into the room and they’re just like, yeah, we’ve seen tons of people do this before. Blah, blah, blah. Nobody’s kind of got it. And when he answers their questions, they’re like, what level of research? And, like, where did you come from? Because you actually do have all the answers. And so that’s where we’re like, why? I say the facility, I feel is so close because that guy has done so much work.

0:39:28 Marc Wandler: And the hardest thing is getting him to talk about it.

0:39:32 Amanda Stassen: I love that. I love the way you guys honor each other in your strengths. It’s so powerful. I mean, it just speaks to the fact that there’s respect and there’s this working relationship that’s forging forward. And it’s so needed because the world definitely needs more entrepreneurs that are taking on problem solving on the bigger scale. So that’s awesome. Mark and Clinton, thank you so much. It’s been awesome learning from you guys.

0:39:59 Amanda Stassen: But before we wrap up, what two purpose power tips can you guys share that would help leaders and entrepreneurs grow their business and brand? And maybe you can both share one. So, Clinton, why don’t we start with you?

0:40:13 Clinton Bishop: Yeah. I think this is one that at some point, everybody has to learn is to check your ego. You’re not. If you’re, if you’re, if your founder and your CEO, if you have the mindset that, you know, this is yours and you will always be CEO, I think you’re setting yourself up for, for failure. It goes for any position in any company. If you can’t acknowledge your limitations, your strengths, your weaknesses, be able to ensure you have the right person in the right job at the right time, I think you’re setting yourself up for eventual failure in your business. So really understand yourself as you’re going into this and check in with yourself as you’re going.

0:40:54 Clinton Bishop: I recognize that I’m COO right now, but I think that we’ve probably failed as a business if three years from now, I’m still COO, because by then we’d better have someone much more seasoned in our industry in my role.

0:41:12 Amanda Stassen: That’s good. That’s really good. Mark, how about you?

0:41:15 Marc Wandler: Are you staging a coup for my CEO position there? Clinton? No, just kidding. I know exactly where he was coming from with that, and it’s a really good tip. You always have to be comfortable potentially taking a backseat, and we’ve had conversations about that. When I’m no longer the right person, I will step down. And I’m always actually looking for my succession plan and who would be the next person to step into my shoes, because burnout is very real.

0:41:42 Marc Wandler: My top tip, and this is because a lot of founders are more tech founders. Don’t build in complete secrecy. I get being in like, somewhat stealth mode, but don’t be afraid to share, like, awareness is the hardest part. So if you’re not really starting to understand how to communicate it out, and the number one thing I say is, like, you really need to learn to nail your three second pitch.

0:42:08 Amanda Stassen: Yeah.

0:42:09 Marc Wandler: So fast. And then your three second pitch should be both to build confusion and curiosity. If you’re not doing both those things, you’re not getting the person to ask, what do you mean by that? If they ask that, that’s your opportunity for an extra 30 seconds to bring the clarity. So you need to first nail your three second to confuse and make people curious. The confusion part is not hard. People nail that part all the time.

0:42:37 Marc Wandler: But can you get them confused and curious enough to ask, wait, what do you mean by that? And buy yourself the 30 seconds in which then you need to build clarity. So that is something I learned and I honed from like, probably six months into the business. And it’s evolved a little bit as you keep going, but that’s what’s allowed us to keep growing and getting awareness for a fraction of the cost that most people in our industry are working with.

0:43:04 Amanda Stassen: So good. That’s so good. Check your ego. Such an important one. No one has all the answers. Be open and curious and know that you know what, you’re not going to be the end all and be all. I love that. And then the idea of don’t build in secrecy, which is actually really hard for entrepreneurs because, there’s this notion that someone’s going to steal your idea, but actually, the more you talk about it, the more identifiable the idea is with you. And it’s the you part that can’t be replicated.

0:43:35 Amanda Stassen: The product idea might be able to be replicated, but you as the founder, as the driving force at this point in time can’t be replicated. That’s, that’s something you don’t want to underestimate. So I love that. So where can people learn more and buy Susgrainable products.

0:43:49 Marc Wandler: Outside of BC, Susgrainable.ca Susgrainable.com. honestly, if you Google Susgrainable, you’re bound to find us probably across the first three pages. That’s the part about having a really unique name, so that’s fun. It’ll also lead you to our retailers. But if you’re in BC Whole Foods growing quickly through the Safeway Sobeys chain, and then we’re hoping by next year there’ll be retailers across Canada that’s carrying the product, some very soon to come in Alberta.

0:44:22 Amanda Stassen: Fantastic. That’s awesome. Mark, Clinton, you guys have been awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your story, your learnings, your passions, and your insight. And just in case you have not heard this today, I want to thank you for living and sharing your purpose. The world is made better because you are in it. Thank you so much.

0:44:43 Marc Wandler: I want to thank you, Amanda, for having us on and also being the first podcaster who’s requested that both me and Clinton come because this has been a lot more fun having him with me doing this than when I do it by myself. So thank you for everything you’re doing awesome.

0:44:57 Amanda Stassen: Thank you guys so much. And Clinton, it was great having you on as well. I’m really glad that you were able to make it.

0:45:03 Clinton Bishop: I’m so thankful. Thanks, Amanda, for this podcast and for the chance for us to tell the Susgrainable story. We love telling it. If we didn’t, we wouldn’t be doing it.

0:45:12 Amanda Stassen: Awesome. Hey, thanks for listening to the purpose power brand podcast. I’m Amanda Stassen. If you liked what you heard, be sure to share and subscribe on your favorite podcast player. We’d also love to hear what resonated with you. Or if you have a guest suggestion, drop us a line at info@bizu.co. Special thanks to Mark Salam for original music music and lead podcasting for production. Lastly, if you’re ready to purpose power your brand to grow, win, and impact at scale, let’s talk.

0:45:42 Amanda Stassen: Visit www.bizu.co. Bye for now.