Amanda 00:02 Welcome to purpose power brand, a podcast for leaders and brands transforming business into a force for good. I'm Amanda Stassen, business and brand strategist, social justice advocate and founder of BIZU Innovation Group. I'm speaking with leaders who are proving that not only does purpose drive profit, but the future of our world depends on it. If you want to grow your business, increase your brand loyalty and not get left behind in the ever-changing marketplace. This podcast is for you. Today I have the pleasure of chatting with Lindsey Boyle, founder of circular citizen, a research consultancy focused on consumer insights to advance the circular economy. Hello, Lindsey, and welcome to the purpose power brand podcast.

Lindsey 00:42 Thank you so much, Amanda.

Amanda 00:43 Awe, can I just tell you how thrilled I am to be doing this circular economy mini masterclass with you today, I'm actually really loving our mini master classes from, we did one on what a B Corp is to storytelling for impact and now a masterclass on the circular economy. Thank you so much for being here.

Lindsey 01:06 It's genuinely My pleasure.

Amanda 01:09 Awesome. So before we dive into the masterclass, tell me about you - give me one word that best describes what purpose powers you and how this inspires the work you do today.

Lindsey 01:20 I'm gonna say nature, if I had to make it one word, really, the work of business as a force for good, I think is, is the tool that I use to be able to regenerate nature. And those things have been unfortunately, not in the same sentence for much too long. And so in most of my career in classic business training, in working as an innovation consultant, unfortunately, nature was completely not in the picture. And in really the last five years, bringing nature back into the picture, and how business can have a positive impact on nature, regenerate nature, I think that's really what drives me and gets me out of bed in the morning.

Amanda 02:21 I love that I love that I you know, whether we know it or not, every one is powered by something and, and just like you describe being, you know, driven and motivated by that intersection of nature and business. We all have something that drives us it compels us in a particular direction, and it helps to guide our choices. I love that Mark Twain quote. It just tells it all it's, and we all know it, you know, the two most important days in our life, the day we were born and the day we find out why. And I think you nailed it like businesses, is the same business. Business has been separated from its why for a long time, and I'm just so grateful for people like you Lindsey, who are championing that question and saying, Well, why are we doing what we're doing? I love that. So thank you for sharing that.

Lindsey 03:09 You're welcome.

Amanda 03:11 So let's get some context for our masterclass today. Circular economy, it's a hot topic. Everyone's talking about it, it seems to be replacing the concept of sustainability. How would you define circular economy? And what's the key difference between circular economy and sustainability?

Lindsey 03:34 Absolutely. Circular economy for me is, I think the best business model we have right now to achieve sustainability. And so that's the critical difference for me is that sustainability can mean many things to many people, whereas circular economy is much more prescriptive. It really gets into the practical steps of how to do business differently, and how to do business as a force for good. There are three core principles of the circular economy, which are to design out waste and pollution, to keep materials and products in use at their highest value. And third, to regenerate nature. And so when you think about that, it's incredibly ambitious. But it really gives you a recipe for how you can do things differently. And so I think about sustainability as the big goal, circular economy is really the model for how we're going to get there.

Amanda 04:41 I love that I love that distinction because sustainability like CSR corporate social responsibility has become sort of this catch all phrase that means a lot of things to a lot of people. Whereas this is very specific, and it has a regenerative component to it. That's really great. That's really great. Thank you for that definition. So, you know, diving a little bit into sort of the history, where did the concept of circular economy originate from? And why has it become more of a focus today?

Lindsey 05:13 Yeah, that's a great question. So certainly, I think the term was really coined by the Ellen MacArthur Foundation, which is an incredible organization doing a lot of work in the circular economy space. However, the circular economy, the principles of it are ancient wisdom principles. So a lot of indigenous cultures have really embodied the principles of the circular economy in terms of working with nature, being stewards of nature, and using the products that nature provides us with responsibly, and really understanding that everything is connected. And so I think, yes, the Ellen MacArthur Foundation was really responsible for maybe putting the terminology into place. But really, it's drawing on a lot of ancient wisdom and indigenous knowledge of how we should be working and being in relationship with nature. Why now is a great question. I think, certainly the urgency of climate change has contributed to that, as well as I think, an increased understanding of waste pollution. I'm a waste nerd, which is why I love this topic. But you know, we're seeing photos of microplastics, and we're seeing photos of turtles with straws in their noses. And I think that really visceral understanding of waste and pollution is another piece of why it's become really timely right now. We're also in a really interesting place with business where purpose driven business has moved beyond just CSR and being a cost center, which I think you mentioned, into being something that is being seen as a growth opportunity. There's a lot of innovation. And if you look at the circular economy, it is truly all about innovation, and opportunity and growth and job creation. So I think that's another component to why now and then, I think a broader trend that I see is really people becoming more aware of their consumption habits, maybe wanting to consume less, maybe being more aware of the impacts of their consumption, or wanting to consume differently, which is a really interesting space that we play in, which is how do people really change their behaviors? How do they shift their mindset?

Amanda 07:44 I love that you touched on the ancient wisdom part, because, you know, if we think about it, nature is inherently circular, right? Like, there's no waste in nature, every every waste, if you will, is another, another thing's food. And so it's just funny how we've deviated from that, or how business has deviated from that. And now we're trying to bring back these ancient practices that we sort of knew all along. It's, it's really interesting.

Lindsey 08:13 Absolutely. And I think that's part of the issue is that the way business has been structured, the way our education system has been structured, even the way our cities are designed, you know, we've lost connection with nature. And a big piece of the circular economy is really about reconnection and repairing relationships between business and nature, but also humans and nature and understanding that we are not separate from nature, we are part of nature. And that that shift is a really important element of the circular economy that I don't think gets talked about enough.

Amanda 08:52 Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. You know, and it makes me think about the business model that we've operated on for so long, which is essentially this linear economy, right? We take things, we make things, we use them, and then we throw them out. And that's really what you've described with the circular economy, it flips that model completely on its head. But you know, talk a little bit about what needs to be in place, or what needs to be addressed first, for us to get there for us to get to a true circular economy?

Lindsey 09:27 Absolutely. So yes, the linear model is definitely the the dominant model, you know, Take Make waste. And the circular economy really shifts that to make use reuse, make use reuse, really keeping products in circulation. And I think that a few things need to happen for us to really get to a true circular economy. I think there needs to be business model innovation. So if your business makes money by selling more stuff, that's probably not circular, you know, we need to think about new business models where you can make money, not just by selling new things, but maybe by selling used things or by selling repair services, or by renting things or sharing things. So thinking about new business models is absolutely key. I think there needs to be policy shifts, so policy changes that really support the circular economy, and don't put a premium on circular products. For example, how can we change tax structures? How can we change regulations so that businesses are really incentivized to become more circular?

Amanda 10:41 Interesting.

Lindsey 10:41 Yeah. And then I think the third piece, and this is really where we play, is around mindset shift. So if businesses need to shift their business models, governments need to shift policy, citizens also need to shift our mindsets. And we need to start thinking about the impacts of our consumption, thinking about new ways of consuming, maybe consuming less, maybe consuming secondhand, maybe renting, maybe repairing. And so there needs to be a mindset shift amongst all of us, where we move from being passive consumers to active circular citizens, where we're really thinking about the impacts that we have, and the positive roles that we can play.

Amanda 11:25 Yeah, wow. So many aspects. The business model, innovation, the policy shift, the mindset shift, I mean, it's, it's huge, right? Like, where do you even start? If you're, if you're a business owner, listening to this podcast? Where would you start?

Lindsey 11:43 Yeah, I think starting small is always a good approach, as is looking at where your biggest impacts are. So thinking about the product or service that you provide, where are the impacts happening? Are they happening in the materials that you're using? Are they happening in the manufacturing process? Are they happening in the distribution? Are they happening when people use your product? Or are they happening when people dispose of your product? And trying to understand where your biggest impacts lie? And then maybe picking one area to start with, and focusing your innovation efforts there?

Amanda 12:20 Okay, okay. So maybe start with an audit, do a bit of a scan, find out where the biggest impacts are, and then start there? Okay, that's helpful.

Lindsey 12:30 Absolutely. And I would say that there's lots of great tools out there that can help you do that. B Corp certification has an incredible assessment tool that really looks at your impacts across the board. There's also lifecycle assessment tools that can help you understand the environmental impacts of your product, cradle to grave or cradle to cradle. So there's definitely tools out there that can help businesses get started.

Amanda 12:56 Okay, good. Good. Now, I know that this is your area of expertise, this whole notion of circular citizens and mindset shifts, and how we consume less, how we can shift to consuming differently. Talk a little bit about the research that you guys are doing in this space.

Lindsey 13:16 Yeah, absolutely. So Circular Citizen, my consultancy, we really focus on understanding consumer mindsets and behaviors related to the circular economy. Because what we found is that a lot of businesses are developing really innovative circular products and services. But if people aren't adopting them, if people aren't changing their behaviors, then those innovations aren't going to have the impact that they could. So we do research to understand what motivates people to participate in the circular economy? What are the barriers that are preventing them from participating? And how can businesses and governments design solutions that make it easier, more convenient, more affordable, more desirable for people to participate?

Amanda 14:03 Okay, and what are you finding? Like, what are some of the key insights that maybe have surprised you?

Lindsey 14:10 Yeah, that's a great question. We run a program called Stuff in Flux, which is a collaborative research program where we bring together businesses, governments, nonprofits, to explore these topics together. And one of the things that has really surprised me is the power of community. So when we think about behavior change, we often think about individual motivations, individual barriers. But what we found is that community plays a huge role. So if people see their neighbors participating in a reuse program, or if they see their friends repairing things, or if they belong to a community group that is focused on waste reduction, they're much more likely to participate themselves. So that social norming, that community connection piece is incredibly powerful.

Amanda 14:59 Hmm, interesting. It's like that tipping point, right? If enough people start doing it, then it becomes the norm, and then everyone else sort of follows suit.

Lindsey 15:08 Absolutely. And I think that's where businesses have a huge role to play, not just in providing the circular products and services, but also in helping to build that community, helping to normalize those behaviors, helping to make it cool and desirable to participate in the circular economy.

Amanda 15:27 Okay, okay. Give me an example. What would that look like for a business?

Lindsey 15:31 Yeah, so I think about Patagonia, which is always a great example in this space. They have their Worn Wear program, where they not only sell used Patagonia gear, but they also teach people how to repair their gear. They have repair workshops, they have repair guides online. And they've really built a community around repair and reuse. And they've made it cool to wear used Patagonia gear, they've made it cool to repair your gear. And so they're not just selling a product, they're really building a movement and a community around circularity.

Amanda 16:08 Yeah, that's a great example. That's a really great example. You know, it makes me think about this, this challenge that we have, because on the one hand, businesses need to sell products to make money. But on the other hand, the circular economy is asking us to consume less, or at least consume differently. How do businesses reconcile that tension?

Lindsey 16:33 Yeah, that's the million dollar question, isn't it? And I think that's where the business model innovation piece comes in. So how can businesses make money, not just by selling new things, but by providing value in other ways? So could they make money by offering repair services? Could they make money by renting products instead of selling them? Could they make money by taking back used products, refurbishing them and reselling them? Could they make money by providing information or education or community building around circularity? So I think businesses need to get creative and think about how they can decouple their revenue from just selling new units.

Amanda 17:19 Okay. Okay. So it's really about rethinking the value proposition, rethinking how you generate revenue, beyond just the product itself.

Lindsey 17:29 Absolutely. And thinking about the long term relationship with the customer. So if you sell someone a product, maybe that's a one time transaction. But if you rent them a product, or if you provide repair services, or if you take back their used product, you're building a much longer term relationship with that customer. And that can be incredibly valuable.

Amanda 17:50 Hmm, interesting. Okay. So shift from transactional to relational. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. You know, you mentioned earlier, the three principles of the circular economy, design out waste, keep products and materials in use, and regenerate natural systems. Can you maybe give us an example of a company that's doing a really good job at hitting all three of those?

Lindsey 18:19 Yeah, that's a tough one, because it is so ambitious. But I think there are companies that are making really great strides. One that comes to mind is Interface, the carpet tile company. They have really pioneered circularity in their industry. They have designed their carpet tiles to be modular, so that if one tile gets damaged, you can just replace that one tile instead of replacing the whole carpet. They have designed their tiles to be easily disassembled, so that the different materials can be separated and recycled or reused. They have a take back program where they take back used carpet tiles, and they either refurbish them or they recycle the materials into new carpet tiles. And they're also really focused on regenerating nature. They have a program called Carbon Negative Carpet Tile, where they're actually sequestering more carbon in their carpet tiles than is emitted during the manufacturing process. So they're really hitting on all three principles in a really impressive way.

Amanda 19:27 Wow, that is impressive. Carbon negative carpet tile. I mean, who would have thought?

Lindsey 19:34 Exactly. And I think that's the kind of innovation that the circular economy inspires. It really pushes businesses to think differently, to think creatively, and to come up with solutions that are not just less bad, but actually good for the planet and good for people.

Amanda 19:51 Yeah, that net positive impact. That's fantastic. That's really fantastic. So, you know, we've talked a lot about the business side of things. Let's shift a little bit to the consumer side, the citizen side. What role do individuals play in advancing the circular economy?

Lindsey 20:11 Yeah, I think individuals play a huge role. And as I mentioned earlier, I like to think of us not just as consumers, but as circular citizens. And that means that we have agency, we have power, we have responsibility. And so the roles that we can play are numerous. We can choose to buy less, we can choose to buy secondhand, we can choose to buy products that are designed for durability and repairability. We can choose to repair things when they break instead of throwing them away. We can choose to participate in sharing and renting programs. We can choose to properly recycle or compost our waste. We can advocate for policy changes. We can support businesses that are leading the way in circularity. We can talk to our friends and family about the circular economy. So there's so many different roles that we can play as individuals to help accelerate this transition.

Amanda 21:11 Yeah, it really does come down to choices, doesn't it? The choices that we make every day, whether it's what we buy, how we use it, how we dispose of it.

Lindsey 21:21 Absolutely. And I think sometimes it can feel overwhelming, like, Oh, my gosh, there's so many things I need to do. But I think it's important to remember that every little bit counts. And if we all start making small changes in our daily lives, collectively, that can have a huge impact.

Amanda 21:39 Yeah, for sure. For sure. You know, you talked about the research that you're doing with Stuff in Flux. What's one practical tip that you could share with our listeners based on that research? Something that they could maybe implement today to become a more circular citizen?

Lindsey 21:58 Yeah, I think one practical tip is to get curious about repair. So next time something breaks, whether it's a piece of clothing, or an electronic device, or a piece of furniture, before you automatically throw it away, just pause and ask yourself, could this be repaired? Is there a local repair shop that could fix this? Are there online resources like iFixit that could teach me how to fix it myself? Could I take it to a repair cafe or a community repair event? Just getting curious about repair and exploring the options that are available, I think is a really powerful first step.

Amanda 22:40 I love that. Get curious about repair. That's great. That's really great. You know, it's funny, my, my husband is a master repairer. He repairs everything. And sometimes I'm like, just throw it out, just get a new one. But he's like, No, no, I can fix this. And he does. And it's amazing how much life you can extend to products just by repairing them.

Lindsey 23:04 Absolutely. And I think there's a real sense of satisfaction that comes from repairing something, whether you do it yourself, or you take it to a local repair expert. There's a pride in extending the life of that product and keeping it out of the landfill.

Amanda 23:20 Yeah, for sure. For sure. Okay, so we've talked about business models, policy shifts, mindset shifts, repair. What's one other key takeaway that you'd want our listeners to remember about the circular economy?

Lindsey 23:38 I think the key takeaway for me is that the circular economy is not just about environmental sustainability. It's also about economic opportunity, social equity, and community resilience. It's really a holistic approach that benefits people, planet and prosperity. And so I think reframing it not just as an environmental issue, but as a solution that addresses multiple challenges simultaneously, is really important.

Amanda 24:11 Hmm, that's powerful. Holistic, benefits people, planet, and prosperity. I love that. That's a great way to summarize it. Lindsey, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing your insights and expertise on the circular economy. Before we sign off, in every episode, we like to leave our listeners with two practical purpose tips that they can apply today to power up their business and brand. What two tips would you share?

Lindsey 24:43 Okay, so my first tip would be to embrace imperfection. The circular economy is complex, it's evolving, and nobody has all the answers. So don't be afraid to start small, to experiment, to learn as you go. It's better to take imperfect action than to wait for the perfect solution that may never come.

Amanda 25:07 Hmm, love that. Embrace imperfection.

Lindsey 25:11 And my second tip would be to collaborate. The transition to a circular economy is too big for any one organization or individual to tackle alone. So look for opportunities to partner with other businesses, with government agencies, with nonprofits, with community groups, with your customers. Collaboration is absolutely key to accelerating this transition.

Amanda 25:38 Fantastic. Embrace imperfection and collaborate. Those are great tips. Thank you so much, Lindsey. Where can people connect with you and learn more about Circular Citizen and the Stuff in Flux research?

Lindsey 25:53 Yeah, the best place to find us is on our website, which is circularcitizens.com. We also have a LinkedIn page for Circular Citizen. And the Stuff in Flux research program has its own website, which is stuffinflux.com.

Amanda 26:11 Awesome. We'll make sure to link those in the show notes. Lindsey, thank you again for joining us today. Thank you for this mini masterclass on the circular economy. And thank you for all you're doing in and through Circular Citizen to make the world a better place.

Lindsey 26:28 Thank you so much, Amanda. It's been a real pleasure.

Amanda 26:32 Thanks for listening to the purpose power brand Podcast. I'm Amanda Stassen. If you liked what you heard, be sure to share and subscribe on your favorite podcast player. We'd also love to hear what resonated with you or if you have a guest suggestion drop us a line at info@bizu.co Special thanks to Mark Salam for original music and lead podcasting for production. Lastly, if you're ready to purpose power, your brand to grow when and impact at scale. Let's talk visit www.bizu.co That's www.bizu.co. Bye for now.