Amanda 00:01 Welcome to purpose power brand, a podcast for leaders and brands transforming business into a force for good. I'm Amanda Stassen, business and brand strategist, social justice advocate and founder of BIZU Innovation Group. I'm speaking with leaders who are proving that not only does purpose drive profit, but the future of our world depends on it. If you want to grow your business, increase your brand loyalty and not get left behind in the ever-changing marketplace, this podcast is for you. Today we're talking to James Bartel founder and CEO of Outland Denim, an Australian fashion company on the vanguard of the socially conscious manufacturing movement. Outland denim employs young women seamstresses who have been impacted by human rights abuses, and gives them hope and a future through sustainable employment and career progression in their Cambodia based production facilities. Welcome, James to the purpose power brand podcast. Great to have you with us today.

James 00:55 Ah, thanks so much for having me.

Amanda 00:56 Yeah, so excited to dive in. And but before we do, James, as a CEO, tell us what personally powers you to do what you do. And let's use that as the leap off context for the backstory behind Outland Denim, and how it came to exist.

James 01:17 Yeah look, I mean, for me, I'm I guess I'm really powered by the things that I was made aware of, you know, the realities of the injustices that we find as a business. And that all happened about 11 years ago, now, when I traveled with the rescue agency into Southeast Asia, to see what the realities of human trafficking look like. And it was on that trip that I witnessed a really young girl for sale, and it was just one of those moments that it's something you can't unsee and it's a moment where you decide that you want to be a part of a solution. And for me, that was a really powerful moment, and I can still see this young girl's face. And, you know, often when it's hard, I do think of her and the 40 odd million slaves around the world, just like her that need justice that need to be given a much brighter future. And so that's what sits below and underneath everything that we do, and it's a pretty good motivator when you wake up every morning.

Amanda 02:14 Wow, that's like a someone who has been part of the anti-human trafficking movement for a while now, it's super inspiring to hear just your experience and how it affected you. It's also interesting to hear you describe the origin of where the idea of Outland denim came from, it really sparks, and it really speaks to what we believe to be a core tenant of what a purpose powered brand is - this idea of solving a real problem, versus what many people accuse business of doing - manufacturing and need to drive consumerism, considering there are so many real problems in the world today and real needs to meet. What do you think keeps leaders and business from doing something about it?

James 03:01 Look, I think it's multifaceted. You know, it's a lack of understanding and education around the real issues a lot of the time, you know, we're living in really fast paced lives. And, you know, the demands of a business today are really high. And so I think about CEOs and leaders and the day to day for them, and I just know the amount of pressure that's put on them. So to then really, to be able to step outside of that clutter, to really understand the bigger issues is really challenging. The other thing is that business has been done a certain way, for a very long time, think about going and, you know, I hear those that have done MBAs talk about what they learned 20 years ago, what things that that educational course, would have covered. And today, it's completely different, today we're much more aware of the realities of injustice, and, you know, in particular, environmental degradation, and all of those, those areas that, you know, our future leaders are being taught about. But, you know, 20 years ago, this wasn't something that was spoken about. And so you've got this really old school mentality that still exists within fashion, especially within the, you know, the corporate world where, you know, the bottom line, the financial bottom line is really the only thing we're measuring our business by. And so, you know, that performance is really measured by the financial, economic side of the business, and therefore, you know, the social and environmental sustainability is not, it's not something that they're measuring. And so that's only now just starting to creep in. So I think that it's we're at a pretty unique time in history where businesses will start to pay attention and will start to address real life issues. But again, it's very difficult to shift a big ship. And that's where lots of startups are going to have great opportunities to be the changemakers of the future.

Amanda 04:55 Yeah, so you saw a wrong in the world. You were on your trip, and you saw wrong and namely, you know, it's the modern day sex slave industry, which for those who don't know, is, you know, $150 billion industry globally, second only in size to the illegal drug trade, according to the UN. And you know, it affects a lot of people that I think you mentioned 40 million people around the world 80% of whom are women and children, and maybe that percentage is even higher. You saw wrong and you decided to create a right by becoming a manufacturer of jeans. My question is, why denim, and more specifically, why the fashion industry - as though, tackling the world's human trafficking issue wasn't big enough of a challenge, you decided to take on fashion, an industry that's totally replete with manufacturing challenges, not to mention unethical manufacturing practices? Tell me a little bit about that.

James 05:56 Yeah, well, look, I mean, it's really it was birthed out of naivety. In all honesty, you like you said, you know, human trafficking is it's a $150 billion industry, it's an enormous beast of a thing that, if we want to address, it's going to take something pretty robust. And, you know, when I think about, when I think about the fashion industry, it's an industry that has a huge amount of power, in a range of ways. It has power in the fact that it's one of the worst exploiters environmentally, but it's also when we look through that through the supply chain of any of our fashion. There's huge social injustice, there's enslaved people all the way through it. And so what greater industry to use to really try and move the needle on this particular issue. And denim, well, ultimately, my dream was that I wanted to be a cowboy. And this is as close as I've ever got to it was making jeans rather than wearing them on a horseback. So, you know, this is, it's really just, I thought it was a product that it's stood the test of time, it's something that to product that has, you know, the ability to absorb history, you know. You think about that beautiful pair of jeans that you bought, and especially, you know, things have changed a little bit with fast fashion where we don't place value on our clothing as much anymore. But when you buy a beautiful premium pair of jeans, you never want to throw them away, because they remind you of that moment or that time, you know, just like a song can do. And so I think that's quite a special product. And, in fact, I'd say the most powerful product in your wardrobe. And for that reason, I believe that it's the right product to really try and raise awareness of these issues with and then give people the ability to be able to be part of the solution rather than the problem.

Amanda 07:41 That's so good. But just diving into the fashion industry a little bit more, what kind of what kind of obstacles, have you faced just trying to, you know, bring forward a different way of thinking in terms of manufacturing, maybe even how you go to market? Talk a little bit about that?

James 08:01 Yeah look it's, look, when we started 11 years ago, we spent the first six years after we started really just proving the social impact of the business. Could it really offer a life where, you know our staff are able to have a freedom, like we experience? Where they're able to, you know, be able to think about the future with anticipation for how good it's going to be and could they be educated? And could they have health care, and all of these things that we just enjoy and take for granted? Did this business model have the ability to do that? Fashion itself is highly exploitive, and the mindset that goes around, I guess, from the very beginning of the supply chain, to the very end is about how can we cut costs? How can we reduce, you know, the expense, the cost of creating these products so that we can sell it for less? And, and ultimately, that mindset is what has led to the exploitation of millions of people throughout those supply chains. And so, if we think about changing that mindset, I guess the areas that we focus on is the mindset of those within the supply chain. So all the way back to the farmer, Hey, how can we encourage the farmer to be able to grow his crops in a way that's the ultimate for the environment? It's not destroying it, it's not taking away from it, but also, how can they grow their crops and benefit the people that work within those farms, and then all that same process all the way through our supply chain to tier one, which is our manufacturing facilities. And we have two of them in Cambodia, that we own and that means that we have control to be able to, I guess, you know, put in the systems we want, you know, to be able to educate our staff on the values that we think are important, whilst not undermining their own personal values. And so we've seen just the most incredible things happen within our production facilities over a period of 11 years. But in particular, the last five years since we launched our brand, and to where we see our staff that have come from really challenging backgrounds, where it's really hand to mouth, you know, how on earth could they think about anyone outside themselves when they've got to worry about feeding their family tonight, you know, and they don't necessarily have the money to be able to do that. So, to go from that, to a place where now they're looking out for other people, they're becoming the solution for the next people coming through. I think that's just incredible. And this Pay It Forward mentality, I think is way of the future. I think it's how we really address these big social injustice issues, like slavery. And I would say that when businesses really turn their attention to addressing, you know, a social, environmental and economic impact of a business, so they start to measure a triple bottom line, I think that's when businesses really become the solution. And I believe that it's industry that's going to be a part of, and in fact, the biggest part of seeing any change in this space going forward.

Amanda 11:03 Yeah, wow. I mean, I couldn't agree more. It's, so important to think about your business, in its entirety of the footprint, not just in the delivery of the product, but in how it's made, for whom it's made, how they make it, the livelihoods that they have, all of those aspects. One of the characteristics of a purpose power brand that we believe is that they know who they serve, why they matter, and they live out that truth in everything they do, it becomes their superpower - what they are uniquely able to do and bring to the world. It's the pivot point upon which they make all of their decisions. What is Outland, Denim’s superpower? And what's your take on the importance of that, within an organization that they would identify their superpower? Why is it important for growth?

James 11:53 I love that you use that term. It's a term I use as well, as I often would say, you know, we've got a unique advantage over many, many other businesses, and it's that we have this superpower. Our superpower is this underlying purpose that is far greater than us, it's far greater and far bigger than our business. When my staff come to work, and it's challenging, they know that they're fighting for something much bigger, that's so much more important than the challenges we face today. And so it means that we don't give up, it means that there is no option to fail, in my mind. I think that's a huge advantage, when you're in business, especially you think about the climate of the last, you know, 24 months and the challenges we face on an economic level as a result of, you know, country's been locked down, our supply chain has been disrupted. You know, the demand for denim went right down. But never once did I sit there and go, it's too hard, I'm going to quit. Because I know that I can't, because I know that there's a lot of families that depend upon this kind of employment. And I believe that the future depends upon this being proven to be the model that's the most successful going forward. And so, you know, having a superpower purpose, something that drives you, even when it's hard, that is key to being successful, I believe, in a really competitive world that we live within.

Amanda 13:21 Yeah. And, you know, for you guys, for you, it was clear, it became clear what your purpose was, you saw a need in the world, you saw a real problem, you felt compelled, if I can use that language, you felt compelled to do something about it, you took it on as your responsibility. Most businesses, you know, I sell soap, you know, or I sell, you know, I'm a laundromat or, or, you know, I'm a P&G or whoever they don't necessarily fill a world need. So where does that purpose come from? If you were to give advice to somebody to say, how do you find your purpose? What would you say?

James 14:03 Well look, I think I think actually, whether you're in business or not, I think we all have a purpose. I think that's, that's really, really clear. And our purpose is to be a global citizen that is adding value, and how do we add value. So with our businesses, we add value, because we are dealing with the public every single day. And, you know, a purpose for business could be as simple as every single customer that comes into contact, or every client that comes into contact with me and my business, they're going to leave in a better position than when they entered. And I think that that's a really, really powerful purpose for people because think about it, you know, it's as simple as I'm feeling overwhelmed today and I'm walking, I'm walking down the street or I'm going to get a coffee. And I see the person at the coffee shop and I they give me a simple smile and a word of encouragement, and how my day can actually change. You know, and I think about it's these little simple things often we forget, within our daily routine within our business, you know. If my business exists to leave the people we interact better than when they can, then ultimately, the impact you could have on your community is huge. But I think we forget those simple things,

Amanda 15:20 Yeah, sometimes we, you know, we look at what difference can we make in the world and we become overwhelmed by all the things that are happening. And so we don't do anything. But you're right, you can, there are the simple things that we can do, whether you're a CEO, or whether you're a program manager, or whether you work at a bank or wherever you are, there is an opportunity every day to add value. And I think, you know, to your point, I think we forgotten a little bit, what the point of business is, fundamentally the point of business is to, it's sort of, it's a value exchange, I'm doing something for you, that will help you, and you're giving me something in return. And that fundamental thing is, is a human thing I want to help you with, I want to make you, I want to give you something that is going to make your life better. It's interesting, perhaps we've overcomplicated it a bit.

James 16:16 I think so I think we have overcome complicated and it's not to say that businesses can address big world issues. I think that's excellently I love, love hearing of businesses doing that, you know, we think on an environmental, you know, from an environmental standpoint, at the moment, you know, we've got lots of businesses that are really trying to address their carbon footprint, and how do we do business and reduce the waste that we create and become zero waste businesses, and there's lots of amazing, exciting things that are happening within the confines of business right now. But you know, I think about being a CEO, just your staff, you know, just being able to invest in to your staff, educate them about the realities of the world, educate them about the environmental issues we face and social issues we face and try and equip them to be those changemakers going out into the world every day, I think there's so many things that we can do on a foundational level, which will make the biggest difference over time, rather than just a few businesses out there trying to address the really big issues. And so I think we all just need to take it on our part on ourselves, do those small parts, and collectively, that's going to be far more powerful than just a few of us trying challenge the big ones?

Amanda 17:25 Yeah, absolutely. And on that note, you know, it makes me think of the, you know, on the spectrum of doing something about social issues. Most businesses, or at least traditionally, most businesses have a a charitable giving program, and then they call it a day, you know, nothing against charitable giving - It is, after all the lifeblood of charities, but on the most part, the social issue typically is outside the scope of what that organization does, day in and day out. It's not part of their business model, if you will. But with the events of World issues, as you've mentioned, over the past number of years, it feels like things are shifting, and more and more businesses are emerging or have emerged with a new kind of business model, one that's more akin maybe to a social enterprise. It generates revenue, and has the achievement of some social or cultural or environmental or community outcome that's central to their purpose. How would you describe Outland denims business model? And what's your take on solving social issues as a Charitable Giving Program versus having it be core to an organization's business model?

James 18:36 Yeah, well, look, our business model is it's, we're a for profit business. And we started this and we continue to exist in this to really to end or be a part of, with many others, ending these social injustice, like slavery, human trafficking, and that's underpinned by poverty, those things that those you know, it's the vulnerable people that are exposed to being trafficked and sold and exploited in these ways more than anybody else. And so when you think about poverty is really the issue that needs addressing, and how do we address poverty? Well, first of all, I think that industry is responsible for a large portion of the vulnerable population being so poor. And that's due to something that I mentioned earlier around, you know, business was about how do we make it cheaper so we can sell it cheaper or increase our margins and, and that's how we were measuring the success of business. I think that is changing today. And therefore, I think industry will go forward into being that the biggest player in changing it, when we think about our supply chain as a really important, everybody within our supply chain been a very important stakeholder within our business. It might change the way that we start to address that and therefore we start to pay people what they're worth. We don't pressure suppliers to do things so cheap that they've, they've got to take those shortcuts. And then we start to see things like poverty being addressed, where people are being paid living wages, they're able to survive, they're able to plan for the future and move forward. I think that those kinds of business models are emerging every single day. And, they are taking the place of charity. I don't have any issues with charity, I think charity is amazing. There's so many amazing people within it. And in fact, the world depends upon it. But I don't think the world should depend upon it. In fact, I think it's a shame that we have to have charities, I think charity can often create a dependency upon a handout. And that doesn't actually help people move forward, it doesn't equip them with the skills they need to be able to be successful and independent going forward into the future. So as much as we need them right now, I hope they're not a part of the future, I hope that the future looks like businesses addressing these issues, that individuals are addressing these issues. And my worldview absolutely sits in the place where I would say that it is our personal responsibility, with whatever resource we've been given to address these issues. And yes, that could be like ticking the box of, you know, at the moment, having a sponsor kid and knowing that they can be educated that and in fact, that's, that's fantastic, that's great. But how much better would it be if the coffee or drink in the morning, you know, is a great brand here in Australia called Nice Coffee, you know, the whole, that whole business was set up to be able to address young people in Africa being educated. And so they set up schools. So that's what the whole thing is about. And there's lots of these businesses around, that the byproduct of buying this particular thing is that someone else was being able to be lifted out of these issues. You buy an Outland Denim product, you're buying a beautiful product that serves a purpose for your own personal needs. But the cherry on top is that you have activated a cycle of freedom, that the people that made that product are now on a pathway to freedom or already there, that their family are also on that pathway or already there, as a result of you buying that product. So it's really about I think, shifting consumers mindsets to going, hey, every single dollar I spent whatever it is, whether it's food or fashion, I'm going to use that money to align with brands that are addressing these issues. That's what's going to make the fastest and most significant difference, in my opinion.

Amanda 22:31 So good. I was gonna, I was going to ask you about denim for freedom, which is part of it's part of your your organization, I think it speaks to the ethos, but I think you've already you've already explained what it is. Which is fantastic. That idea of with every pair of jeans that I buy, I'm actually supporting freedom in someone's life. It's just so powerful. And but it brings me to this other thought, which is consumerism. Like it's a super hot topic these days, there's a ton of debate, you know, on either side of the fence, but mostly around this idea that a lot of the world's problems would be solved if we could just produce and consume less. But, you know, listening to you is that the answer, or is it possible that we can rethink consumerism and use it for good? What's your take on that?

James 23:25 You know, I love this question, because I'm a little bit provocative by nature.

Amanda 23:31 That's okay, you're in good company.

James 23:32 I would like to make the statement that I believe consumerism is the solution, not the problem. Currently, it is the problem. But the future doesn't look very bright. When we consume less. Let's think about the poverty situation I've just been talking about, you know, what happens when we consume less? Well, the most vulnerable people suffer. So I believe the future needs to look like where we address this, the social injustice and environmental issues through the lens of consuming more. If a product left not only the people that were involved in that supply chain in a better position, but also made the planet healthier - right now, we're not there yet. But imagine if we were so that every single time we consume something, people were being uplifted out of poverty, their lives would be made better through education, health care, all of the fundamental foundational things for somebody to thrive, but at the same time that the planet was being made healthier. Think about it, we use lots of natural fibers and so at the moment we go, well, that's bad thing, but what if we were growing natural fibers in a way that was a good thing, natural fibers naturally absorb co2. Carbon is absorbed out of the atmosphere and put into the soil, the soil needs carbon. So growing these things, these plants is a good thing. The problem is when we harvested all the emissions that are created in the in the processing of the fibers all the way through to creating, you know, the end product. And then the way that end product is, you know, treated at home, it's washed, every, it's washed too often it's whatever the energy used and all of those things. That's, that's what's creating the problem. But when you break it down into the individual bite sized pieces, you go, well, hey, surely we can address each one of those things individually. To eventually where we get to a place where we go, it's actually leaving the planet better, because it's absorbing carbon out of the atmosphere, it's putting it back into the soil where it belongs. It's giving people jobs with good conditions and fair pay. Well, man, how can that not be the solution? You know, buying less, what's the outcome of buying less, less jobs. Therefore, money's tied up, the economy suffers, and everybody starts to get tighter on the way they spend. It's ultimately going to be bad - who's going to go and invest into making those changes? Who's going to find and innovate to find the solutions, that does leave the planet in better position, because we made something? Nobody, because there is no funding that's gonna go towards it. So I think that it is very, very clear consumerism is the only answer. But that isn't right now saying, there's a green light on going out and just buying a heap of fast fashion or buying things are actually part of the problem. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying but the future has to be consumerism, there is no other way.

Amanda 26:25 Yeah. You know, you almost you could have like rift into a have a dream speech right there. That was That was perfect. I love your purpose. And I love your passion. It's super inspiring. It's been an honor diving into your story. But before we sign off, in every episode, we want to leave our listeners with two practical purpose powered tips that they can apply to level up their business and brand. What tips would you share today?

James 26:53 You're the solution. Ultimately, you are the solution. And you have the ability to solve problems. And so I say that is your responsibility. And that's a great honor that you get to carry that. The second thing is, don't be scared to fail. Failure is a step closer to success. And if you don't fail, you won't succeed. So I think that we all need to be able to be okay with the fact that if we're having a goal, and we're learning from our successes and our failures, ultimately, we're on the right path where we're moving further and further toward the end goal of being successful at whatever it is that we're attempting to be successful at. But failure should not be your enemy, and you shouldn't be scared of it. It is a necessary step in being successful.

Amanda 27:38 I love that - you are the solution. I love it. It's not enough to just see a need out there. It's, you need to take that step and take it on as your responsibility to do something about it and that you have the power. So good. So, James, where can people find you? Where can they learn more? Where can they vote with their dollar? What's your website, call out?

James 28:01 Yeah, look, go to outlandenim.com, you'll be able to see the product offerings that we've got there. You know, if you find a retailer that's stocking us, you know, go in and have a look at our products, but there's so many more products and so many more brands out there that are doing really good things with the way that they produce. And so I guess I just encourage people just to, I know it takes time. But try and find those brands, you know, there's a range of different ways you can do that. But if you just Google, you know, good on your app is a is a guide, it's certainly it's not the be all and end all but it's a definite guide and pointing you in the right direction of brands. And now, the kinds of things that they address, I would just say using your dollars is what's going to make the biggest difference.

Amanda 28:50 Awesome, awesome. James, thank you again for joining us today, for sharing your story and your wisdom. And thank you for all you're doing in and through Outland Denim to make people's lives and the world better. Thank you so much.

James 29:04 Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Amanda 29:07 Thanks for listening to the Purpose Powered Brand Podcast. I'm Amanda Stassen. If you liked what you heard, be sure to share and subscribe on your favorite podcast player. We'd also love to hear what resonated with you or if you have a guest suggestion drop us a line at info@bizu.co Special thanks to Mark Salam for original music and lead podcasting for production. Lastly, if you're ready to purpose power your brand to grow, win and impact at scale. Let's talk visit www.bizu.co. That's www.bizu.co. Bye for now.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai